Zen
Banido
É por isso que a confissão de pouco vale nos sistemas judiciais evoluídos.
A Santa Inquisição conseguia confissões até de... falsidades!, usando tais métodos!...
McLaren punida com multa e perca de pontos
- Iniciador de tópicos Mordor
- Data de início
É por isso que a confissão de pouco vale nos sistemas judiciais evoluídos.
A Santa Inquisição conseguia confissões até de... falsidades!, usando tais métodos!...
Zen
Banido
Mosley questions Dennis's integrity
By Biranit GorenSaturday, September 15th 2007, 13:00 GMT
FIA president Max Mosley has questioned McLaren team chief Ron Dennis's integrity in his dealing with the governing body during the spying affair - but Dennis himself has defended his actions by insisting he was truthful throughout.
Mosley recounted the events that led the FIA to contact the McLaren drivers and request their collaboration, which resulted in new evidence submitted to the World Motor Sport Council against McLaren.
And the FIA president believes Dennis was not telling him the whole truth on the affair.
Speaking on ITV today, Mosley said: "On the morning of the Hungarian Grand Prix, Ron rang me and he said, 'I've just had Alonso in the motorhome and he says he's got information and he's threatening to give it to the Federation.
"So I said, 'What did you say Ron?' He said, 'I said, go on and hand it over.'
"I said, 'Ron, you said exactly the right thing.'
"And then Ron said, 'But there isn't any information.'
"So I said, 'So it's an empty threat?'
"And he replied: 'Yes, a completely empty threat. There's no information, there's nothing to come out; I can assure you that if there was something, Max, I would have told you.'
"Now this was a week after looking me in the eye in the World Council and telling me there was absolutely nothing wrong and everybody had done exactly as they should do, so I believed him.
"I've known Ron for 40 years; it's very difficult for me, when somebody I've known for 40 years looks me in the eye and says, 'Max, I'm telling the truth with complete sincerity' - you believe him.
"It was only when I got the list from the Italian police [showing] 323 SMS phone calls going over a three-month period between Coughlan and Stepney, [that I concluded] there had to be more to this.
"You don't get 300 messages arranging a visit to Honda. This is something serious. At which point, I sat down and wrote the letter to the drivers, and the rest is history."
Dennis quickly responded to Mosley's accusations, defending his actions and stating at the time of speaking with Mosley, he was telling the truth based on what he himself knew at the time.
"I was a little surprised by what Max said," Dennis told ITV. "I am working hard to get closure on a very unpleasant experience that McLaren have had.
"I don't want to get into the detail, but I do want to address one thing, and that is that when someone asks me a question - and I've answered some difficult questions - at the time I made those answers I told the complete truth.
"At the point of the first hearing, when I was asked the question did I know anything more, the truth was, I didn't.
"The emails that passed between our drivers were as big a surprise to me when I heard, as anyone else - and as I said, if they existed, what I said to Fernando was that he must give them to the FIA.
"I just want to be very clear that at no stage did I ever say any lie to anybody.
"I put my integrity above everything. I just want to be very clear about that particular point."
E ainda há quem pretenda que não se provou nada...
By Biranit GorenSaturday, September 15th 2007, 13:00 GMT
FIA president Max Mosley has questioned McLaren team chief Ron Dennis's integrity in his dealing with the governing body during the spying affair - but Dennis himself has defended his actions by insisting he was truthful throughout.
Mosley recounted the events that led the FIA to contact the McLaren drivers and request their collaboration, which resulted in new evidence submitted to the World Motor Sport Council against McLaren.
And the FIA president believes Dennis was not telling him the whole truth on the affair.
Speaking on ITV today, Mosley said: "On the morning of the Hungarian Grand Prix, Ron rang me and he said, 'I've just had Alonso in the motorhome and he says he's got information and he's threatening to give it to the Federation.
"So I said, 'What did you say Ron?' He said, 'I said, go on and hand it over.'
"I said, 'Ron, you said exactly the right thing.'
"And then Ron said, 'But there isn't any information.'
"So I said, 'So it's an empty threat?'
"And he replied: 'Yes, a completely empty threat. There's no information, there's nothing to come out; I can assure you that if there was something, Max, I would have told you.'
"Now this was a week after looking me in the eye in the World Council and telling me there was absolutely nothing wrong and everybody had done exactly as they should do, so I believed him.
"I've known Ron for 40 years; it's very difficult for me, when somebody I've known for 40 years looks me in the eye and says, 'Max, I'm telling the truth with complete sincerity' - you believe him.
"It was only when I got the list from the Italian police [showing] 323 SMS phone calls going over a three-month period between Coughlan and Stepney, [that I concluded] there had to be more to this.
"You don't get 300 messages arranging a visit to Honda. This is something serious. At which point, I sat down and wrote the letter to the drivers, and the rest is history."
Dennis quickly responded to Mosley's accusations, defending his actions and stating at the time of speaking with Mosley, he was telling the truth based on what he himself knew at the time.
"I was a little surprised by what Max said," Dennis told ITV. "I am working hard to get closure on a very unpleasant experience that McLaren have had.
"I don't want to get into the detail, but I do want to address one thing, and that is that when someone asks me a question - and I've answered some difficult questions - at the time I made those answers I told the complete truth.
"At the point of the first hearing, when I was asked the question did I know anything more, the truth was, I didn't.
"The emails that passed between our drivers were as big a surprise to me when I heard, as anyone else - and as I said, if they existed, what I said to Fernando was that he must give them to the FIA.
"I just want to be very clear that at no stage did I ever say any lie to anybody.
"I put my integrity above everything. I just want to be very clear about that particular point."
E ainda há quem pretenda que não se provou nada...
K2000
New member
Há pessoas que procuram "migalhas" onde se agarrar para tentar desculpabilizar a maclaren por todos os meios possíveis, o que acabar por ser um bocado triste...
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ManuelBarbosa
Banido
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Bernie
Banido
E a Ferrari consegue ser informada pelo homem das fotocópias lá do sitio sobre roubo de documentos altamente secretos.
Os dias de hoje são qualquer coisa....[
]
ManuelBarbosa
Banido
E a Ferrari consegue ser informada pelo homem das fotocópias lá do sitio sobre roubo de documentos altamente secretos.
Os dias de hoje são qualquer coisa....[
Essa das fotocopias eu já me fartei de perguntar como foi e ainda ninguém me deu uma explicação logica para isso.
ManuelBarbosa
Banido
O defeito é exactamente o mesmo dos dois lados, a quem se agarre a tudo para ver a Ferrari ganhar.
K2000
New member
K2000
New member
Não te tiro nem dou razão, simplesmente não é o que está em causa neste momento.
o facto de levantar questões da ferrari só serve como tentativa de desculpabilização.
Nem entendo como raio partiram para questões de corridas "históricas", nem li aquilo direito, mas não entendi a relevância.
ManuelBarbosa
Banido
Não foi a Ferrari que este no banco dos reus mas o Schummi por causa do acidente com o Villeneuve.
A Ferrari não esteve mas bem podia ter estado esse ano porque no fim da corrida foi logo protestar que a equipa deu ordens para o Villeneuve deixar passar o Hokkinen e que isso era explicito na conversa de radio entre a box e o piloto.
Agora pergunto como é que a Ferrari sabia o teor da cumunicações da box da Williams com os seus pilotos?
Muito simples espionagem, a Ferrari espiava a cumunicações durante as corridas para saber antecipadamente as tacticas e tirar vantagem disso.
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Bernie
Banido
Nesse mesmo GP veio-se a saber mais tarde que a Ferrari tinha pressionado um piloto para atrasar o máximo possivel o Villeneuve isto dito que próprio piloto (não me recordo o nome).
Nunca aconteceu nada como sempre e aqui era a equipa que estava em causa não era o Shummi.....
ManuelBarbosa
Banido
Eu não tenho duvidas que a Mclaren sabia do tal dossier, só que existem algumas partes da historia que são um bocado surreais.
Porque até o argumento que a Mclaren tirou vantagens por saber antecipadamente de varias soluções e descartar-las poupando tempo ao não testa-las e um bocado ilogico porque estamos a falar que chassis e motores difirentes o que significa que pelo o facto de determinado setup ou solução não funcione num carro e não significa que não vá funcionar no outro.
Por isso acho o castigo justo.
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ManuelBarbosa
Banido
Nas qualificações desse grande premio a Ferrari mandou o Irvine para a pista só com o objectivo de atrasar as voltas lançadas do Villeneuve, e a brincadeira só parou quando o Villenuve andou aos berros pela boxe dos Italianos. Durante o GP o Fontana atrasou bastante o Villeneuve, mas aí nunca saberemos a verdadeira razão.
gil vilanova
Banido
Jesus! Como vocês divagam. Agora já vêm com historinhas de grandes prémios passados, com truques mais ou menos sujos usados por equipas e pilotos, como se se pudessem comparar a espionagem industrial. Não sabia que a McLaren tinha adeptos tão fervorosos em Portugal. Ou então tratam-se simplesmente de anti-ferraristas.
Continuo sem perceber como se tenta defender um erro tão grave com erros de outros, embora sem a mínima comparação.
O Bernie então, parece o advogado de defesa da McLaren.
Pensei que a clubite era só no futebol, mas já estou a ver que se alarga a outras modalidades.
Continuo sem perceber como se tenta defender um erro tão grave com erros de outros, embora sem a mínima comparação.
O Bernie então, parece o advogado de defesa da McLaren.
Pensei que a clubite era só no futebol, mas já estou a ver que se alarga a outras modalidades.
Im4real
New member
Oh meu amigo, caem todos em cima porque é a Mclaren , se fosse ao contrário não tenhas a mínima dúvida que não era assim.
Pega lá um caso de espionagem industrial recente...
F1: Briatore Vague on Renault Use of McLaren Data
The matter first came to light at McLaren when the team did a thorough review of its IT systems in an attempt to see whether any information relating to Ferrari and Nigel Stepney had been passed around.
During that search it was discovered that a team member who had subsequently moved to Renault had downloaded information. It’s believed that he took three CDs of data with him to Renault.
On becoming aware via a source that McLaren was already conducting an investigation into the matter, Briatore personally approached Ron Dennis at Monza and volunteered that Renault had indeed obtained some McLaren information.
We understand that the initial “shopping list” of information he offered did not entirely match up with that already compiled by McLaren as being copied. Subsequently Renault has added further items to its original list.
Questioned on the subject at the FIA press conference on Friday, Briatore said, “I think McLaren was judged by the World Council, and there was enough evidence to find McLaren guilty – it’s as simple as that. I don’t want, at this moment [to talk] about Renault because, first, we are not being investigated, second we give all our evidence to McLaren and to Mr. Mosley and to the Federation.”
The matter is now being discussed by lawyers representing to the two teams. Curiously thus far there has been no indication from the FIA that it will pursue a case against Renault.
Bernie
Banido
Tu também só olhas para o que gostas viu-se isso no tópico do Senna pelo que a tua moral para falar de "gostos" é muito baixa.
gil vilanova
Banido
Castiguem-nos! Eu não tenho nada contra a McLaren, mas penso que quem faz batota tem que ser castigado. E o meia-leca do Alonso também havia de ser penalizado (desse já não gosto).
K2000
New member
Eu tenho muitas dúvidas, se fosse ao contrário seria exactamente igual, uns quantos a tentar desculpar e muitos a deitar abaixo.
Só quenão se pode desculpar um erro pelos erros dos outros, isso é no mínimo, infantil e imaturo.